Spoke about this on the ham radio-er... G+, but I may as well start one up here as well.
I was listening to CBC Radio1 this morning and there were a few people speaking about the protests in NY and (soon) in Toronto as well.
I get it. "The system" is structured to favour the rich and to leave just about everyone else SOL. Tax breaks are there for corporations and rich bastards, and all but non-existent for lots of others. Jobs are hard to come by. Again... I get it. All of the above points are crystal clear, and I agree 100% with anyone who holds this position.
What's not clear is what this movement is specifically trying to achieve. I want to be clear on something here. I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm not trying to say that this is pointless, though I can understand why it might seem that way given my past [general] opinion on actions like this.
The President of Waging Non Violence (which is this organization I think: http://wagingnonviolence.org/) was on the radio this morning as well and was asked to respond directly to criticism that the OWS movement is disorganized and unfocused. The main reasons he gave were:
- It's the nature of a protest like this to be unfocused
- It's because this is more than a 1 day march
... none of which make sense to me. I understand that they're speaking to a large, complex issue. That's fine. I understand that there's a lot of anger surrounding an issue like this. Also fine. But why isn't there any effort being spent into presenting some options for making things better? I'll even have a go at it. Why don't we (in Toronto at least):
- Reduce the executive salary cap on government employees by 25%
- Reduce income tax by 20% for anyone making less than $45k/yr and increase it by 5% for anyone making over 100k/yr (I realize that will never happen, but again, it's an option).
- Increase taxable benefits for university tuition paid by domestic students by.... 15% (let's say)
- Introduce a system that provides increased tax incentives for every Canadian who wishes to make pre-authorized deductions to local charities/social programs.
Would any of these fly? Honestly, probably not. I'd be willing to bet that I've put in more effort into coming up with solutions than some have though.
ALSO, if someone can please point me to resources involved with either the Toronto or New York movements which DO attempt to outline steps towards a solution, I would be more than happy to read them.
Originally posted by The_Spectre
Would any of these fly?
Nope. That’s why I think it’s unfocused. They know there’s no practical outcome, it’s just a way to vent.
Venting is good though, the angrier and louder the better. The longer it goes on the more likely it is that someone will step in and take a leadership role. It's had some staying power, a few weeks is a long time for a protest to go for, and it doesn't look like it's slowing down.
I'd be happy if that were the case, but the cynic in me does not see that happening at all. In fact, I'm thinking that "someone ELSE will step in and take a leadership role" is the pervasive mindset.
I also had no idea that this was going on for a couple of weeks. So,.. thousands of people have just camped out in the streets, or what?
Originally posted by The_Spectre
I'd be happy if that were the case, but the cynic in me does not see that happening at all. In fact, I'm thinking that "someone ELSE will step in and take a leadership role" is the pervasive mindset.
I also had no idea that this was going on for a couple of weeks. So,.. thousands of people have just camped out in the streets, or what?
It only started getting media attention after there were questionable tactics by the police in suppressing the protestors. Now fair enough it wasn’t 20,000 people like they wanted so it might not have warranted coverage, but the cynic in me says otherwise.
Personally I don’t think things are bad enough – yet.
Was listening to a spot on npr about it. Some of the group expressed their opinions well. One even pointed out the irony of being against corporations while using Apple laptops and Verizon wireless. Others were filthy goddamn ungrateful spoiled hipsters.
I think they would be better served with better focus. Hating corporations is a non starter. You label yourself as big a fucking idiot as a creationist. Asking for greater transparency in gov/ corporate relationships probably has traction in gaining popular support, but no real outcome.
This could be the start of the dem version of the tea party. I don't see how true liberals could be at all happy with the democrats in office. I imagine the group might be around till 2012. But by then the economy might be rebounding from a double dip. I sure hope its a 'w' recovery vs an 'l' recovery.
I don't get it either, I'm friends with one of the head organizers for the soon to go active occupation in Miami and he didn't make it clear either. He basically said they're still working on what they're after.
I have a real problem supporting an organization without a clear objective and think they should've created that before rallying not the other way aronud.
Originally posted by creepylurker
Was listening to a spot on npr about it. Some of the group expressed their opinions well. One even pointed out the irony of being against corporations while using Apple laptops and Verizon wireless. Others were filthy goddamn ungrateful spoiled hipsters.
I think they would be better served with better focus. Hating corporations is a non starter. You label yourself as big a fucking idiot as a creationist. Asking for greater transparency in gov/ corporate relationships probably has traction in gaining popular support, but no real outcome.
This could be the start of the dem version of the tea party. I don't see how true liberals could be at all happy with the democrats in office. I imagine the group might be around till 2012. But by then the economy might be rebounding from a double dip. I sure hope its a 'w' recovery vs an 'l' recovery.
I would be more in support of transparency and dismantling the two party system but neither one will ever happen.
I feel like the passion of 12s might have been diluted by the ages. Conceding to the impossibility of reform might as well be an endorsement of the status quo. Stinky is right, venting is good - collective venting is better, even if it is somewhat ambiguous in it's nascency.
I think it's obviously that not everyone on the street is going to understand the issues well enough to offer profoundly constructive suggestions; but that doesn't mean they can't tell something is rotten in denmark. So long as they aren't ALL running around spewing lunacy - or god forbid the lunatics become the leaders as was the case with the tea party movement - then the numbers of the group are more important than it's clarity.
Originally posted by Stinky
Venting is good though, the angrier and louder the better. The longer it goes on the more likely it is that someone will step in and take a leadership role. It's had some staying power, a few weeks is a long time for a protest to go for, and it doesn't look like it's slowing down.
Now Michael Savage is calling them vermin - when you start to get people like him all bent out of shape you know its working.
Reform is possible. Dressing up like a zombie and not knowing what you even want is not the way to get it. If anything it hurts those that are serious.
Reform happens with well written documents, well fought legal battles, or burning down buildings. Anything else are individuals goofing off or seeking attention.
They are also a little late to the party.. there was a time when financial corporations had great influence on government. Now?... Apple has more cash on hand than the total market cap of Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs combined.
the far right has been in a non-directional, pissed off populist movement for a few years now... i see this as the left finally getting involved.
all the while i just feel like we're getting played by a bunch of guys way richer and smarter than we are.
it doesn't matter if the economy collapses.. it doesn't matter if we riot in the streets.
somehow at the end of the day, they still have more money and more power, and we're the schmucks that keep handing it to them.
Where there's deer, there's coyote.
Where there's meandering, listless populism, fascism waits to pounce.
Dangerous, dangerous, dangerous.
I also want to point out that I'm not telling them NOT to assemble in the streets and voice their opinion. They have every right to do that, and they should not be prevented from doing so, or accosted by any authority for doing so; that clip of the NYPD corralling and macing a group of women was insanely unnecessary, and reminds me of some of the nonsense that occurred here 2 years ago.
It's when it changes from just being loud and boisterous to an all out riot that I have a problem with on several fronts. Problems with the police for using it as a carte blanche excuse to do whatever they deem necessary at the time. Problems with idiots that taunt the cops and give them even more of a reason to do so. Problems with passers-by who were not part of any protest but immediately think it would be cool to get some shots to put on Twitter/Facebook. And of course problems with the government for not keeping their guard dogs in check and refusing to apologize for what even the courts judged was excessive force.
Part of me says that making noise about problems can lead to solutions. But another part says the fat cats are just loling over a brandy and cigar about the whole thing.
Originally posted by Jetskier79
I feel like the passion of 12s might have been diluted by the ages. Conceding to the impossibility of reform might as well be an endorsement of the status quo. Stinky is right, venting is good - collective venting is better, even if it is somewhat ambiguous in it's nascency.
I’ve always been, and still to some extent am, one of those people who thought things would get better just need to get a few smart people in charge. But lately that positive outlook has been eroding. As many of you know I’m not an American citizen, but have lived here for 30 of my 36 years; after Obama was elected I was very seriously looking in to becoming an American. I thought finally, a smart, calm and inspiring leader and then…
It’s not all his fault the conservative base became even more infantile than it had in the past and then got worse with the Tea Party take over of Congress. I don’t think there’s been a President in the last 30 years to ever face such stark and consistent opposition. Having said that, I’m not thrilled with him either. On the little things he’s done quite well, but on the big things it feels like he’s failed miserably. Health Insurance, Wall Street reform, the stimulus bill, TARP. In many ways I actually believe he’s actually performing the role of President the way it was intended which is something we haven’t seen since Carter. He’s behaved like a gentleman and a scholar in a town where gentleman no longer exists and scholars seem to be an election cycle away from being burned at the stake for being witches.
I don’t want to say Obama was the last chance saloon, but if a moderate, right of center guy can’t get a basically Republican agenda from three or four years to pass what hope is there of an actual left wing president trying to pass an actual liberal agenda. I’d like to hope it’s just the racist aspect, but it’s been 30+ years since an actual liberal was in the White House.
Meanwhile the country has taken an even more distinct shift to the right. There was an article in the Christian Science Monitor a few weeks ago that showed for the first time ever more Americans self-identify as conservative than liberal or moderate.
So yeah at the moment I do feel a little aimless, a little hopeless and completely outnumbered.
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Originally posted by jestros
Part of me says that making noise about problems can lead to solutions. But another part says the fat cats are just loling over a brandy and cigar about the whole thing.
You forgot to mention champagne...
On the issues American overall are decidedly not conservative, the majority are liberal leaning. The main issue the Dems have is one of marketing themselves as a group and who they stand for. The idea of the tax and spend democrat still exists despite the inverse existing since Reagan. It may be this movement that finally gets the youth of America to vote en mass and actually get noticed by the people that wield power in DC. This mixed with the next decade or two of older, more conservative, more racist, and more sexist generations dying off that the country can finally begin a shift towards representing people. Once the smokescreen of conservative social values no longer flies the right wing will have nothing to hide behind.
Not conservative by American standards, you mean.
Yeah, Americans are center-right, and always have been. It's just that center-right seems far to the left since the discourse is so skewed these days.
In 1849 the good people of Montreal, angry at the government, burned down the House of Parliament. I think they were on to something.
Riots are the only thing that actually gets shit done
If you don't make a damn Preview Post button, so help me, I'm going to burn this motherfucker to the ground!
pitchforks
I keep telling people that Obama is the best Republican president we've had in a long while.