word is it's some kind of viral by Ontario colleges. ???
//edit: Crap. Wrong forum.
Moderator!!!!
so where can I get some of this Obay?
You'll get it where we TELL you to get it.
Capiche?
I have no opinions of my own, I must go to college and incur large student loan debt that will cripple me financially before I even enter the workplace.
Nice message.
...especially since you aren't encouraged to think on your own in any undergrad degree, just to learn the required materials and be able to refer to them knowledgeably and reapply what you have learned in testing.
As far as getting "educated", anyone that goes to school to have their minds expanded is wasting their time - you're not even expected to do any original thinking until your graduate thesis, at earliest. Unless you're in a career program you're only getting your entry level training to go on to a master's - unless you do grad studies you've wasted your time. Realistically, even with a graduate degree any non-career program means you have the choice of continuing with academia or starting from scratch in some professional field that might be vaguely related to what you studied.
Some days I wonder what the hell I was thinking getting an MEd if I wasn't serious about teaching (and I realized that while still in undergrad, stupid call on my part), or for that matter, since I've done OK building a "career" in graphics, what the hell use a university education is, at least in a field like mine where it's entirely possible to get work without goign to university. Sure, some places require a related undergrad degree before they'll hire you, but there's always ways to acquire equivalent experience. Most jobs I see for a graphic designer now ask for a university degree, but when I was in university none of the English schools actually had a graphic design degree and anyone in the field knows it - so they'll take equivalent experience. Same holds true for web design & illustration. OK, in Quebec it's sometimes code for "we want a francophone" as the French universities did offer designer programs in university (even fashion design) long before the English ones did, here in Canada anyhow... in Ontario though the only place you could do serious design training was OCAD which wasn't allowed to grant degrees, just fellowships, so anywhere asking for a degree really means they want someone who's young enough to not make the art directors feel threatened.
... But for that matter, some dumb kid that joins the city worker's union as a janitor in the subways is making more than most fine arts university grads I know, to start, with benefits. By the time 4 years have passed they might have been in university, they have seniority - while the "smart" university kids are exiting school with tens of thousands in debt and degrees in stuff like sociology, fine arts, english literature... and that's just here in Canada, in the US the debt load is way higher...
I used to think that people should study whatever they felt like and that a liberal arts education was just as valid as a career degree, but seriously, with the debt load you incur you'd be better off learning whatever it is you're into on your own and at the very least not go into debt, or even better, go to a technical college and learn a trade. While it's true you don't often hear about electrician/philosophers in the textbooks, you also don't often hear of electricians that die poor, or see many job openings for philosophers in the classified ads. If you really want to be 40k + in debt to get a college degree in some dumb shit in Ontario, that's your call.
If it's about the career security, though, just remember kids, it costs less to get an degree in dentistry (5 years from McGill) than teacher certification (6 years minimum plus teacher training/ certification). even better, be a veterinarian - most of those guys retire wealthy by the age of 50.
Yeah, but with the ongoing collapse of the international financial markets, an MEd or even an MFA might be worth more than an MBA in the next decade or so.
I think a case of dynamite would be worth more than all 3 put together with a nice suit thrown in.
Originally posted by: arigato I have no opinions of my own, I must go to college and incur large student loan debt that will cripple me financially before I even enter the workplace <...> blah blah blah
Somebody sounds a little bit bitter.
I honestly don't understand the Obay/College thing, myself. Maybe the second half of the campaign will make things clearer. :shrug:
Short version: It's funded by Ontario Colleges. To encourage youth to go to school, so they can be all self-expressive and shit. Which is utter bullshit - undergrad is too superficial to give you any "deep" understanding of anything but the most rudimentary, discipline-specific ideas, and your own are discouraged unless they synch up with the weltanschauung of the program.
Yeah, I'm bitter. I remember when having a degree meant something... or at least when I thought it meant something. At one point in my life, getting into an Ontario College was my biggest goal - I wanted to go to Ontario College of Art (as it was called in those days) more than anything, and was told by everyone I had a small chance of getting in, there was lots of competition, etc... yeah, I got in, first try, like I knew I would. I didn't care for the atmosphere there though, so went to university in Montreal instead... but that was bullshit, too - just in a better city. Considering the kind of art I'm into didn't even exist when I was in school and most of what I learned in school was utter bullshit, I do honestly look at the BFA as an exercise in self-indulgence... I honestly took the MEd so I'd get to look into philosophy of art deeper and make sure my teachers in undergrad were as full of shit as I thought they were. The only thing I got out of going to university was the personal sense of self-worth that I could actually get into the university of my choice & get a degree. Woo hoo. As I become more bitter I become less vindictive, it's kind of a tradeoff.
By the time I graduated I thought contemporary fine art was bullshit, art education was bullshit, teaching was bullshit, the university degree system was bullshit.... actually, I guess I did learn some useful stuff, I didn't waste my time playing any of those games any further.
Originally posted by: The_Spectre You'll get it where we TELL you to get it.
Capiche?
I get it.... except for the Capiche part.
Don't spare me; tell me what you really think.
Degrees are useful, despite what some people here might lead you to believe. coughstinkycough
You don't have to convince me. I have no degree and homeschool my brats.
It just seemed weird to me to see going to college presented as the rebellious, free-thinking choice. When I was coming up, not going to college was the way of rebelling against your parents.
I try to squelch my kid's individuality and impose my wishes on him, but he's rebelling and going to community college.
WTF?
Well, I met Steph through university - that's worth more than any stupid degree, I'll tell you that for free.
And only when she's within earshot.
runs
nyuk nyuk nyuk
You dropped a hundred-and-fifty grand on a fucking education you could'a got for a dollar-fifty in late charges at the public library.
Originally posted by: mclarkson Don't spare me; tell me what you really think.
Degrees are useful, despite what some people here might lead you to believe. coughstinkycough
You don't have to convince me. I have no degree and homeschool my brats.
It just seemed weird to me to see going to college presented as the rebellious, free-thinking choice. When I was coming up, not going to college was the way of rebelling against your parents.
I try to squelch my kid's individuality and impose my wishes on him, but he's rebelling and going to community college.
WTF?
YOR WAISTING Y'ORE MONAY
mc what is with your recent fascination with everything in toronto? first you're checking out the ads on our streets, then the available women in toronto....you planning a lifestyle change or what?
That was my thought, too.
He's trying to stalk me, and probably sktd and sketch as well.
GET AWAY FROM US BEARDO!.
On topic: I got a degree. I like the degree I have. I don't think it makes me any more/less valuable to the career I'm involved with.
I spent even more money (because I obviously had it to burn - I just enjoyed eating Ramen noodles for the sheer culinary experience) on a diploma after I graduated university. I don't think it makes me any more/less valuable to the career I'm involved with. Quite frankly it was a waste of fucking money.
Sad reality: Many people erroneously perceive a university/college education to be today, what a high school education was a generation ago. There are way too many employers that won't even consider you if you don't have the piece of paper to back up experience and skills which you may or may not have.
Consider: When I look at a Doctor/Lawyer/Engineer/etc etc etc..., I want him/her to have a piece(s) of paper on the wall. NOT to re-assure myself that they have the proper skills to do their job; I'll only know that through experiences with them. But because that piece of paper represents leverage for me if they fuck up their job and the blame game begins.
getting a degree doesn't mean that you have to graduate saddled with huge debt... or any debt for that matter. you can choose to do so of course but it isn't the only possible outcome.
True, d, but possible and probable are 2 different things.
Look at it this way. More and more kids are attending Uni/College every year at a rate that outstrips (I believe) their net wealth. This means more and more families are going to have to try and figure out ways to pay for it. It's either the case that those families are going to have the money to pay for the ever increasing costs of tuition/books/residence, or they're going to have to incur a sizeable debt through loans.
I agree, that it's not the ONLY outcome. I came out relatively unscathed, but that's because I worked all throughout, and I lived at home.
But that's not the most likely outcome for everyone.
Not true for everyone, d - mostly only true for the middle class or wealthy. for one thing,Ontario doesn't have grants anymore, just loans, and the bursary/student award options are extremely slim pickings. Grants & assistant gigs only really start happening for graduate & post-graduate students.
In Ontario anyhow, if you're from a lower class family in a working class city with high unemployment, your options are pretty much take the loans, or don't go to school. Of course you also have the option not to buy into the whole "university is your ticket out of this shithole" and just get up and go under your own steam, but after generations of poor kids being told that education is the path to a better life some of us actually fall for it.
I actually did work all the way through university - in retail. That kind of money isn't even enough to pay the rent, let alone pay for tuition, books, and supplies. Pretty much the only job available to a young person with no particular job experience or connections that would earn enough to pay for university would be tending bar or waitering - and in any city with universities & colleges there's only so many of those jobs around, especially if you're a guy (any presentable-looking young female student stands a way better chance of getting table shifts than a guy). Same goes for stripping and hooking.
So anyway, don't give me that middle class bootstraps jive. Most people who don't come from "good" families will have to incur loans, even if they graduate high school with honours, have a part-time job, and study hard. And most of them won't have decent enough jobs to pay off their loans in 5 years so will incur 5 years worth of interest.
Anyway, I'm speaking strictly about Ontario - things might be different in the US. They're certainly different in Quebec - for one thing, trade schools and college degrees have free tuition, and these degrees are pre-req for university, which allows for shorter programmes and resultantly less debt.
School is school. I'm glad I did it, I learned and matured quite a bit while I was there (more than I realized at the time), but it didn't turn me into some brand new beautiful butterfly.
Granted, I was lucky enough to be able to work my way through college and pay cash. I did so at the cost of "the college experience" (went to a fairly inexpensive regional college, worked full time, lived off campus, ate ramen, decided which classes I really needed a book for, etc.) but I never bought into the affected "life phase" stuff anyway. I was able to walk away with a degree and no debt, which suited me fine.
:shrug:
Times change. I went to school on a full academic scholarship that included room and board and books. For spending money I sold drugs, wrote term papers, cheated at cards, gave blood, and did the odd job through a temp agency.
Of course since I wasn't paying for it, it wasn't worth much to me. After I got my room and board check in my junior year I dropped out.
In Ontario, academic scholarships are pretty slim pickings until you get at least to grad school. Once you're post grad you can pretty much stay in school for free indefinitely, at least tuition-wise. I know more than one person who's doing just that because they don't have any job skills to pay off their student loans and are hoping to eventually qualify for some kind of academic job if they just get enough degrees.
While it's great that no matter how poor you are or how poor your family is the government will happily loan you money to go to school , the loans are floated by the banks and they calculate 5 years to pay off the capital and 5 eyars for the interest - for me that meant 5 years paying 320 a month - they were kind enough to knock 5k off my debt as I finished my master's in 2 instead of 3 years... so I only had to pay back 32k. What a deal. Sure, 32k for 6 years worth odf school isn't bad.. but wow, paying it back sure fucked me up for a long time.
And yeah, I lived off campus, ate chickpeas and rice, etc.
I fell for the whole "ticket out of poverty/better future/expand your mind" spiel. I enjoyed university, learned a lot, and had a good time - but was 6 years education worth 10 years of being hostage to the banks? Um, no.
I feel bad seeing the same romantic bullshit being fed to kids now, is all. Especially since my BFA and MEd aren't worth the paper they're printed on to me, and cost me more than anything I have ever gotten involved with before or since.