i use dreamweaver now, mainly for percise positioning of pictures and its better than notepad. i downloaded go live, but im scared to try it. anyhting good about it that dreamweaver doesn't have, and vice versa? which one u like most? and why?
I'm on a MAc (OSX) and I find Golive crashes less often than Dreamweaver... if you use Fireworks a lot (but I'm guessing you don't) GoLive has some really excellent integration features. Personally I find that both blow enormous chunks but Dreamweaver is nominally better as far as the UI and feature set go. But then again I don't use Fireworks much either.
I think that if you use a WYSIWYG program knowing Dreamweaver will probably look better on a resume'....if that's a consideration at all here.
_Originally posted by jeremy _ *I think that if you use a WYSIWYG program knowing Dreamweaver will probably look better on a resume'....if that's a consideration at all here. *
Ahh this is true grasshoper however, knowing both will look even better on a resume rather then just one or the other.
i still stand by knowing the code is better at the end of the day.
ok while we're at it why don't we just say that knowing all three would be even more impressive .. on a resume .. at the end of the day 
I stand corrected. :beer:
If you can't write a basic HTML page off the top of your head in notepad, you're probably wasting any potential employer's time...
If the extent of your coding abilities involves laying a page out in a WYSIWYG editor, then you really shouldn't be listing said abilities on a resume...
Not to be a jackass or anything, but I'm with Mosquito - learn the markup, not a program.
As far as Go Live is concerned, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Adobe has never been a big player in that end of the design business and no employer (except maybe Adobe themselves) is going to be upset by a lack, or impressed by a wealth, of Go Live know-how. If you're comfortable with Dreamweaver, you may as well stick with it.
hmmm speaking for myself, I do know the code ... as for others I can't really say.
just to make sure everyone is clear, neither jerkstore nor i are saying anyone doesn't know the code. i've come to the realization after having spent enough time working with other people's code that i know the difference between what is done with a wysiwyg tool and what is done "by hand." honestly the biggest difference i have found is in the structure of the document. as horrible as this may sound, a solid document structure is very "zen like" in terms of it's minimalism. the biggest reason for this is that realistically, the document should if at all possible only contain content.
i've never really played with go live, but at my present job i have to use dreamweaver to update the previous person's work and i'm thankful for a tool like dreamweaver as hacking through the mess would be a nightmare without it. i do think dreamweaver is better because of the code level aspect in terms of help with php syntax completion, etc. if i had to choose, as much as i hate to say it, dreamweaver (or as i typically call it, dreamcleaver) is a good tool.
in terms of a future employer, i think it's going to depend on the position, and the type of work the company you work for does in terms of "what looks better." if you are applying for a design position, then knowing dreamweaver probably looks good. if you are applying for an "implimentation" type position, then knowing the code is far more important. i have noticed that designers that know the code (aka if asked know the basic principles of standards based design) are a much much more valuable asset. they also have more "staying power" in the industry.
go live's biggest asset i think is it's integration with other adobe tools, which unfortunately aren't really "web tools." macromedia's products are largely web based, and as such their integration is gear towards it.
i always stress learning the code, and i personally can code faster in a text editor than dreamweaver, but i'm more coder than designer at this point. however, if i find something better than dreamweaver i'll let people know. just remember, the tool is only as good as the user, and while dreamweaver can help tremendously, it can also make some seriously horrible code. hence my standard "learn the code."
i mean hell i'm proud of jerkstore. he use to consistently argue against the whole tableless layouts, but now? well he makes me proud. not that i think i had anything to do with it. i'm just happy to see what he does now. 
You have a good point mosquito. I haven't used recent versions of Dreamweaver, however I do remember in earlier versions that the end code that it "spit" out was messy and there was a lot of junk in it. I hated the fact that I had to go in and clean it all up manualy. I'm not sure if it has gotten better with MX and MX 2004.
_Originally posted by mosquito _ *i mean hell i'm proud of jerkstore. he use to consistently argue against the whole tableless layouts, but now? well he makes me proud. not that i think i had anything to do with it. i'm just happy to see what he does now.
Well, I still take objection to referring to it as "tableless layouts" because tables are a perfectly valid, standards-compliant way of structuring data. But that's it, they should be used to present tabular data. So as long as people use tables for what they're for, rather than for arranging 400 sliced images, then I'm all for tables. As I'm sure are you. Nothing pisses me off more than these people trying to use CSS to create tables of data. They're so indoctrinated to fear and loath tables that they refuse to use them even for what they're designed to do. Grrrrrr!
But yeah, letting the html be the structure and the css be the design rocks my socks. It's like a satisfying challenge when you can create a site that looks gorgeous, and then is totally semantic without any styles applied. And I TOTALLY agree about the zen-like aspect of a properly structured page of code. Mmmmm... love that order and reason.
And yeah, like Mosquito said I wasn't singling anyone out as not knowing how to code. I have a bad habit of using "you" even when I'm not referring to anyone in particular. I use "you" generically a lot...
PS - Homesite rules and Dreamweaver drools!
Just to join in for a sec - I would always recommend Dreamweaver over Frontpage for someone who was just wanting to dabble.
I am with all the others tho. If I to hire someone and their CV listed dreamweaver or/and frontpage and little else, it would be binned.
Part of the real world of web work is not just coming up with your own stuff, but also being able to adjust, fix or add to existing code. Code which itself can be complete shat because it was coded either years ago or by someone who knows fuck all about how to code with any sort of flow or concept.
Knowing how to use ANY software like that, is not really going to help you when dealing with the above things.
Moral of the tale? Start out in Dreamweaver. Then look at the code. Pretty soon, you will be able to see just how shite the code produced by the editors really is and will never use them again!. 
In truth, I do a lot of work in Microsoft Visual Studio .Net and even then I try to avoid previewing the code in VS as it takes it upon itself to format the code for you - cheeky fucking program!!
I NEVER code css in anything but textpad.
ASP in VS - because at work we create in solutions and its good for file/project management...oh and the context colouring.
P~
Dreamweaver for me. Split screen Design/Code view so the designers amongst us can actually jump in, make a site in the design window but see and learn the code real time as it's constructed.
Also in time, you can then begin to use the code window more and more directly, until eventually you're working solely in code and watching the layout change in the design window.
There's nothing more daunting for a designer than to think they have to sit and look at NOTEPAD to be 'true' to HTML (My developer brother fed me the "NOTEPAD OR BUST" line 8 years ago..and it set me back many months because I came from a design background and couldn't understand Code).
I gotta say, i don't agree with you from a designers point of view. Learning code is secondary to learning the fundamentals of visual design for any web 'designer'. Layout, Usability, Structure, etc, etc are 100% more important than Syntax For a web ‘designer’.
if we're talking 'developer' then sure..Notepad would make any
self absorbed nerd proud. eeeeeeeeeeehehehehehehehe!!!!
I can actually write HTML on paper with a pen..that way I don’t even have to turn my pc on.
Hardcore++
NOice. :beer:
While I do agree that it is important to undertand html thoroughly to avoid sloppy generated code that makes changes difficult and bloats html needlessly, I suspect that the attitude of some "purists" is the programmer version of small penis syndrome - it's not even a programming language, for the love of Cthulu - get over it!
snaps 3 times and leaves thread
i dunno about mac, i do all my html on teh pc, and prefer dreamweaver. but i've never really tried go live for very long. i just liked dreamweaver, with it's split view, and have stuck with it. doesn't do everything i'd like, i wish it used mozilla for it's wysiwyg, as what it uses now isn't wyg in mozilla or IE, but it's a decent tool none the less. i can't remember it crashing on me in the last few years
I will soon start the graduate degree(s) in Informatics at IUPUI with a focus on human computer interaction. The only prerequisites are Dreamweaver and HTML. Other languages can be substituted but the idea is that you have a common language to speak in as you help each other.
Why have to choose when you can have both as the occasion arises.
Allaire Homesite
If only Dreamweaver worked like that.
Originally posted by: wowbagger[tip] Allaire Homesite
If only Dreamweaver worked like that.
Isnt it Adobe Homesite now?
Ive been using Homesite since way back and find it the best out there. I also use Dreamweaver but thats only if I have issues with tweaking some CSS and I need a quick visual look while Im troubleshooting padding or whatnot. Anytime I use Dreamweaver I still go through the code afterwards in Notepad or Homesite to make sure that DW hasnt put in any stupid code (unnecessary now, but after using DW since it was InterDev its more of a habit)
99% of the time I just use HomeSite and TopStyle Lite.
But I agree, if you cant do it all without a WYSIWYG it doesn't belong on your resume. Its always annoying to interview someone who has been a "coder" for 5 years only to find that they didnt even know you could write HTML in notepad.
Originally posted by: cfoley [quote]Originally posted by: wowbagger[tip] Allaire Homesite
If only Dreamweaver worked like that.
Isnt it Adobe Homesite now?
Ive been using Homesite since way back and find it the best out there. I also use Dreamweaver but thats only if I have issues with tweaking some CSS and I need a quick visual look while Im troubleshooting padding or whatnot. Anytime I use Dreamweaver I still go through the code afterwards in Notepad or Homesite to make sure that DW hasnt put in any stupid code (unnecessary now, but after using DW since it was InterDev its more of a habit)
99% of the time I just use HomeSite and TopStyle Lite.
But I agree, if you cant do it all without a WYSIWYG it doesn't belong on your resume. Its always annoying to interview someone who has been a "coder" for 5 years only to find that they didnt even know you could write HTML in notepad.[/quote]
I was posting int the spirit of the thread date. Dreamweaver in codeview is practically the same as the old Homesite.
These days I'm mainly using notepad++, XMLSpy and Eclipse with some plugins.
I guess that I need to upgrade my resume to "experienced using Notepad" so that it fits with all those vacancies looking for programmers "with Notepad experience"