Interesting & complex story... > French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Wednesday ordered authorities to expel Gypsy illegal immigrants and dismantle their camps, amid accusations that his government is acting racist in its treatment of the group known as Roma.
Sarkozy called a government meeting Wednesday after Gypsies clashed with police this month following the shooting death of a youth fleeing officers in the Loire Valley.
Sarkozy said those responsible for the clashes would be “severely punished†and ordered the government to expel all illegal Roma immigrants, almost all of whom have come from eastern Europe.
He pushed for a change in France's immigration law to make such expulsion easier “for reasons of public order.†He said illegal Gypsy camps “will be systematically evacuated,†calling them sources of trafficking, exploitation of children and prostitution.
The language has chilling undertones in a country where authorities rounded up Gypsies and sent them to concentration camps during the Nazi occupation in World War II. Former President Jacques Chirac, the first French leader to acknowledge the state's role in the Holocaust, condemned “the Nazi madness that wanted to eliminate the Gypsies.â€
...
Community leaders contend the very principle of the meeting - which singled out an ethnic group in a country that is officially blind to ethnic origins - is racist and warn of grave consequences if their side isn't heard. France's government does not count how many of its citizens are of a certain ethnicity; everyone is simply considered French.
“Today ... I am afraid we're preparing to open a blighted page in the history of France, which could sadly lead to acts of reprisal in the days ahead,†said lawyer Henri Braun said at a Wednesday news conference by French Roma leaders. “There is a huge problem of racism in France towards this population, there is enormous discrimination.â€
France's relationship with what it calls Gypsies is complex and complicated by divisions among the disparate populations.
One, formally given the administrative label of “traveling folk,†includes several hundred thousand French citizens who have lived in France for centuries, and were traditionally nomadic but have become increasingly sedentary in recent years.
The other main Gypsy population is made up of recent immigrants who come mostly from Eastern European countries like Romania and Bulgaria, usually illegally, and are often seen begging on the streets of French cities.
Those in the more established communities say they are being unfairly lumped together with illegal new immigrants. Sarkozy's orders Wednesday targeted Roma, though the violence in Saint-Aignan earlier this month was in a community of traveling folk established in the region for years. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/28/world/main6722137.shtml
I don't know if it's because I've been spending too much time in Brooks, but I think expelling illegal gypsies and banning the burqa are both good ideas.
runs
What on earth is Sarkozy doing? Seriously, the guy must be some kind of moron.
I mean there's no other possible explanation for why he's wasting his time running a country when he could be at home fucking Carla Bruni. :shrug:
Motherfucker.
I have no more useful response at the moment. Illegal immigrants are problematic, but this kind of round up pisses me off. Especially when so racially targeted.
I'm hoping he'll get an earful at the UN. Though I doubt it... our recent representative there has been quiet.
Originally posted by: Stickman ...no other possible explanation for why he's wasting his time running a country when he could be at home fucking Carla Bruni. :shrug:
He's got time. Woody Allen had her occupied making her do 51 takes carrying a baguette out of a store. Her scene has no lines.
The perfect opportunity to take time out to bang his mistress.
This is purely a popularity move - generally the French have been open to the Romany and whilst there has been some mis/distrust they have generally let them come and go as they please and have respected their lifestyle.
Recently, with the large influx of eastern european Romanies, alot of that tolerance has evaporated - as where the Romany have been crime (primarily theft) has gone up - particularly in rural communities. Now this may or may not be coincidental (we all know that the world has been through the Le Crise and in tough economic times crime generally increases) but I know of 3 farmers locally that have had things stolen from their barns and one old dear was threatened with violence by 3 men that she swears were romany (this is an area where we don't lock doors - I leave my keys in the ignition of my car).
I'm not saying that the eastern romanies are to blame but Sarky is losing badly on the popularity front with his pension and retirement age reforms and needs to be seen to be doing something pro-France that will appeal to the general populace - they're a soft target.
Originally posted by: rogue_designer Motherfucker.
I have no more useful response at the moment. Illegal immigrants are problematic, but this kind of round up pisses me off. Especially when so racially targeted.
I'm hoping he'll get an earful at the UN. Though I doubt it... our recent representative there has been quiet.
Dunno, recently there was a group of 750 gypsies send back to France here in Belgium. The problem is not so racist or targeted.
The problem is that these people set up their camp on a farmers land (unasked) or in the forest . Then you get a lot of robberies in these regions and they practically destroy the area around the camp with litter and such.
So it really is a problem. If they would park their trailers on the areas where they are permitted and pay "the rent" to be there, there wouldn't be a problem.
Different situation in France, though, as some of the groups are licensed to travel freely. Not the eastern European Rom, mind, but it was a group of "travellers" that had the riot with the cops, not Eastern Rom newbies. Seems like the faults of one group are being used to target another within the same general ethnic community - sounds like they are just using this as an excuse to kick out eastern European illegals. It's not like they can deport the French gypsies as illegals since they are issued documents and have been there hundreds of years.
Part of my problem is the identification of which group of illegal immigrants to kick out.
All illegal immigrants - ok. (difficult, but ok)
Only Chinese illegal immigrants, or only Jewish illegal immigrants - that becomes problematic.
And seriously? When there are riots and violence in the parisian suburbs? The Rom are who they are going after? It just seems like an easy/weakest target situation. No allies, or home country - who's going to complain?
Looks like Sarkozy's debate on national identity of last year is bearing fruit.
lots of good stuff here, unfortunately only in French:http://www.ldh-france.org/Roms-N-inversons-pas-leshttp://www.memoires-tsiganes1939-1946.fr/
Nobody likes the Gypsies. Even Hitler didn't like the Gypsies. When I was in Germany, nobody on post liked the Gypsies.
The fact that the Gypsies were always creeping into people's apartments uninvited didn't help.
Originally posted by: mclarkson Nobody likes the Gypsies. Even Hitler didn't like the Gypsies...
The fact the Gypsies were always creeping into people's apartments uninvited didn't help.
:(
Truth.
Also, the rom have what may be the best word ever for the holocaust... the Porrajmos - "the Devouring"
Even so. Historical, systemic hatred and racism, is hardly an excuse in this day an age.
Unless you have a bunch of gypsies moving in, who might have a history of systematically making themselves at home on property that may or may not belong to someone else who pays for it.
Originally posted by: Big Ern I don't know if it's because I've been spending too much time in Brooks, but I think expelling illegal gypsies and banning the burqa are both good ideas.
runs
Where is it you think they're now gonna go though? What country could they go to that's nearby and has shit immigration laws? Let me give you a clue, we let YOU in. 
basically, if it's a problem that Gypsies commit crime, prosecute them like you would any other citizen. If it's a problem with illegal immigration, go after illegal immigrants... but let's see, why just Gypsy illegals specifically and not, say, North Africans? Oh that's right, the North African community wouldn't stand for it, and nobody likes the Gypsies anyway.
It's straight up racism. That Sarkozy is putting citizen and illegal immigrant Gypsies in the same group and specifically singling out the Gypsies should be fucking CHILLING and some of you guys seem to be sort of for it...
First they came for the Gypsies and I did not speak out because I was not a Gypsy...
gypsies stole my backpack when i was traveling from brussels to amsterdam earlier this year. got my laptop with all my music software, etc. still haven't been able to replace it which has kept me a bit stagnant in my ability to work on music.
just sayin.
Originally posted by: arigato It's straight up racism. That Sarkozy is putting citizen and illegal immigrant Gypsies in the same group and specifically singling out the Gypsies should be fucking CHILLING and some of you guys seem to be sort of for it...
I hope I didn't come across as for it.
I was trying to indicate that the general mood towards gypsies (nationals or immigrants) in France has swung away from tolerance. Sarky needs to do something to improve his political popularity. The gypsies are his means to attain that goal. They are soft easy target - it doesn't take much rhetoric or mud-slinging to turn mistrust into hate.
Distasteful and worrying - most definitely.
I'm an immigrant too - although a legal one.
These aren't just 1 or 2 gypsies who travel somewhere and set up a tent or trailer. Those groups are 500 to 1000 people big. So you can't compare this to other illegal people.
Those gypsies setup their trailers on land that doesn't belong to them and then theft and robberies are going up in the regions where they stay. So it's pretty easy to tell them that they should leave since they are illegal. A camper who sets up camp where he isn't permitted is also told he should move so....
Regular illegals are also send back when they are caught.
I don't think the US would condone a group of 1000 illegal cubans or mexicans either when they for instance would set up a camp in central park, NY.
You seem to be missing the point, General -
Sarkozy's talk of rounding up Gypsies does not extend to the ones that have papers, he's after illegal immigrant Gypsies. Not illegal immigrants in general, but specifically Gypsies. I know what Gypsy camps are like, I'm not blind to the fact that Gypsies culturally clash with oh, how shall I put this... white French people... I have met thieving, lying Gypsies running scams. But then again I've met thieving, lying people running scams from all the other ethnic groups. Who, precisely, should we be rounding up?
If a citizen commits a crime, they should be punished for that crime. But if you start saying a specific ethnic group causes crime, it's racism. Maybe the rules for travelling folk need to be reconsidered, but they are still citizens, with the rights of citizens. And it's not them Sarklozy's after, he's after illegal immigrants. So the question becomes very simple:
Why just illegal immigrant Gypsies? Oh right, because nobody likes the thieving, dirty Gypsies. Buncha scum. Threat to society. Oughta round 'em up. You know, like in WW2.
So you're saying it's not fair to all the illegals then?
I'm saying that if it's illegals that are an issue, get tough on illegals - don't be cherrypicking by race. It's discriminatory at best.
But they're sitting right there! Why pass up the opportunity?
Originally posted by: arigato I'm saying that if it's illegals that are an issue, get tough on illegals - don't be cherrypicking by race. It's discriminatory at best.
I'm saying that it's easier to pick a group of 1000 illegal gypsies and remove them then regular illegals who travel with 1 or 2. Those wouldn't get media attention either. And they are also removed just like the gypsies. France is just the same as Belgium.
Like i said before, recently they removed 750 gypsies (from France with French passport) and told them to turn back to France. Ofcourse this got alot of media attention and such but that doesn't mean other illegals aren't send back either.
Nothing discriminating about it. You cold also turn it around and ask why they should not pick on illegal gypsies and just regular illegals
Keyword is **illegal **here.
I'm just glad our problem with illegal immigrants here in the states is so much easier to both deal with and understand... cut & dry.